Episode 7 afterward: Stop apologizing for being human (and other ways to end the stigma around mental healthcare)

Justin Steinman:
Definitively Speaking is a Definitive Healthcare podcast series recorded and produced in Framingham, Massachusetts. To learn more about healthcare commercial intelligence, please visit us at definitivehc.com.

Justin Steinman:
Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of Definitively Speaking. The podcast where we have dated driven conversations on the current state of healthcare. I'm Justin Steinman, Chief Marketing Officer at Definitive Healthcare and your hosts for this podcast. I'm joined today by my friends and colleagues, Brittany Morin-Mezzadri and Todd Bellemare for an afterwards discussion about our last podcast with Cara McNulty, the president of mental health and wellbeing at CVS Health. Now quick apology to everybody listening today if we're not sounding as crisp as usual, all three of us have had recent COVID exposure and so we decided it might not be the best idea to cram ourselves into a small podcast studio, breathe over each other and make each other even triple more infected, so we're doing this on road. But I promise we'll be back in the studio for our next episode. Anyways, Brittany, Todd, great to see you guys virtually.

Todd Bellemare:
Hello, Justin.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
What's up guys?

Justin Steinman:
How are you doing? So I'm glad you could take this time even looking at each other over Zoom screens to have a conversation about last episode discussion with Cara McNulty. Because it really was one of my favorite ones so far. Brittany, you were right there with me. What stood out to you about that conversation?

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
Absolutely everything. I really wanted to spend so much more time with her than we did. She was phenomenal. The thing that I held on to the most and I still think about now is how we can take care of our own mental health. And I think she used the phrase or use the phrase, how do we brush our brain? How do we do proactive healthcare for our mental health when there really isn't always a clinical consequence or side effect of poor or declining mental health? So hearing her speak to that was fascinating to me.

Justin Steinman:
Yeah. Todd, what, what did you listen to? What did you think about it?

Todd Bellemare:
I did. I agree. I thought it was a fantastic podcast. She was wonderful to hear her perspective on the challenges and the barriers they're breaking down to improve access to mental health care. Because I think that for me when we, a lot of the talk that we've had in our podcast has centered around, when it comes to staffing this coming tide of need. And so looking at that sort of, the difference between that feeling of hopelessness to at least providing a glimpse of, hey, here's somebody who's in the midst of fixing a problem that is such a problem that almost everybody is feeling. You look at the statistics and it's millions and millions of Americans that are going without care that really need it. And so what stood out to me is, again, that what are the ways to brush your brains or what are we doing to help people get to a point where they can access that mental healthcare.

Todd Bellemare:
And even just the descriptions for me, I hadn't even thought of some of the barriers that she brought up. And obviously when you don't know the barriers that are out there and I'm assuming I'm not the only person who didn't realize some of those barriers. So to have someone illuminate them, it makes it easier or at least you can focus on where to break them down. So that's really what stood out to me for sure.

Justin Steinman:
What jumped out at me as I reflected on the podcast, one was what I would call the normalization of mental health. We talked about the fact that if I had a broken angle, I wouldn't go run a marathon. I mean, that's physically impossible. But if I'm struggling with mental health issues in the olden days, so to speak, I would not talk about them. I would be like, I was put in a corner, go to work, do my job, talk to my family and carry on. And CVS and [inaudible 00:04:01] are really trying to normalize mental health. Everybody goes to the MinuteClinic to get a vaccine, or if they have the flu, now you're going to a MinuteClinic to get mental health service. What's more normal than going to a MinuteClinic for crying out loud?

Todd Bellemare:
For sure. That to me too was super interesting in terms of the gulf of how we talk about your body's healthcare versus your mental healthcare. Hey, you go outside and you know automatically, oh, to be healthier, I need to eat better, get fresh air, go for a walk, whatever, but we don't or have not typically associated, well, what are the mental health things I need to do to get there. So yeah, that really ties into a little bit of a hopefulness that is now becoming the norm for sure.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
And that it should be, mental health care should be as normal as an annual physical. Being able to connect with a provider to just have a quick check in to make sure that, for lack of better terms, things are on straight and that you're headed in the right direction and that you don't need additional support or services for your mental health.

Justin Steinman:
Yeah. But even then, Brittany, I think it's not the annual physical. I mean, we talked about you got to go get your annual physical. I think what Cara brought up was she talked about the normal day to day, like the annual stressors. And she's like, we put licensed clinical social workers into the CVS stores. And you might be stressed out because you can't find daycare. And that's, for your kid and you got to get back to work. Particularly as we are all leaving our homes and going back to the offices now. And that additional stress with maybe fighting the pandemic and getting your kids back to school and your boss now wants you in the office three days a week, those are all normal regular things and you're spiraling down. And when you're at that MinuteClinic, the licensed clinician could say, "Hey, stop. Let me start and help you deal with one problem at a time. Can I help you find your daycare?"

Justin Steinman:
And even like, is finding daycare a mental health issue? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know, but I can see how it causes a mental health issue.

Todd Bellemare:
Right. You're right.

Justin Steinman:
Right? And I think that what was really interesting about it is they're going to think about, what are some of those social determinants of health that they can then help improve and, take them off the proverbial list. I think that's what jumped out.

Todd Bellemare:
Yeah. Especially when you look at what they're doing to try to break those, those are all barriers. Whether it comes to, there's this, the old school culture of no, compartmentalize, just get through it, just go forward. And we had almost had this idea of, well, you should feel guilty if you can't do that. You should feel guilty for feeling like your mental health is suffering when you got to get the kids to school at 7:00 AM, then you got to be at work from 8:00 to 6:00, and then you're missing out on things because maybe you have to put them in an afterschool thing. All these different things are piling up and you can even still see it right now with the hustle culture. It's like, "Oh, if you're not hustling you're not working."

Todd Bellemare:
There's all this societal push for that sort of mentality. And to have the ability or have a company or even the mindset switch, that new normal. We've got so many new normals now after the pandemic. And if this is one of them that people are able to slow down, take a break and understand that this is the important thing, I'm not a warrior that's going to have to compartmentalize every bit of my personality to get through this thing, that was huge. And how CVS is looking to make this discreet. Because even people who still feel that push of the culture to not take care of your mental health, if you can discreetly walk into a CVS MinuteClinic and have the opportunity to see someone and talk to someone without those small communities where you know people that walk around, they don't know you're there for a mental health visit.

Todd Bellemare:
And that to me, again, it shouldn't be a stigma to seek mental health, but try again, that's a barrier. And the fact that they're so focused on removing those barriers, I think that is one of the main keys of getting us through to where mental health does become our new normal.

Justin Steinman:
What's interesting so since we had that podcast recording where Brit and I spoke Cara at CVS and Morning Consult released a new survey around mental health. CVS Health Morning Consult survey finds mental health concerns increased substantially across Americans of all backgrounds. And as I was reading through that study, one of the things that jumped out, Todd, as you're talking to me here is that the survey found that while 74% of employed adults agree that employers should offer their employees resources and access to mental health, only 35% of employed adults feel comfortable discussing mental health with a colleague. Which indicates an opportunity for workplace. Workplace is to further engage their employees. And so you are sitting there talking right now, Todd, about how the warrior mentality and our relationships with our offices are changing. And I think they all have. I mean, we're productive at home now, which we never were three years ago. But now we have this new relationship with our employers, we still haven't crossed that mental health hurdle yet. It's kind of interesting.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
For me, so we're going to go a little personal here about-

Justin Steinman:
Okay.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
... if... Yeah.

Justin Steinman:
That's good.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
Yeah.

Justin Steinman:
This is a comfortable space, Brittany. We're here for you. We support you.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
Thank you. So yeah, I was reading that same study and it was talking about how six and 10 Americans who had participated in this study had experienced concerns about their own mental health, and that most of them agreed that hearing about other people's challenges made it more comfortable to seek out resources for themselves. So, definitive healthcare offers an excellent for those who participate in benefits program offer-

Justin Steinman:
We're hiring by the way, [inaudible 00:09:50].

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
We're hiring. Excellent benefits around mental health. But the first three years I worked here, I never took advantage of them. And a lot of that has to do with what Cara was talking about. I didn't know how. I didn't know where to start. I didn't know, there were a lot of barriers for me to access that and a lot to do, like Todd said with the hospital culture. I was at work at nine o'clock in the morning. I live an hour away. I wasn't getting home till 6:00. When, where, and who was I going to meet to talk about what? The idea of trying to find a therapist or a mental health professional was adding to the stress. So after we were all sent home to work from home, I was lucky to work for a people manager here at Definitive who prioritized emotional and mental safety and security that we could be free to talk to her about our mental health concerns. And she was very free to point out when she noticed that I was declining and made those recommendations for me.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
So, I mean, for the last two, two and a half years I've been seeing a mental health professional who's obviously recommended some tools and skills in my life and medications that have certainly helped keep me from spiraling. That wouldn't have happened without someone else talking to me about mental health options. Or pointing me where to start. So if CVS can do that, put that big neon sign saying, start here for whatever. We don't care if it's a broken ankle in mental health. Start here and we will help you navigate this really stressful system. I think that's a really excellent move.

Todd Bellemare:
I think the thing that you mentioned, Brittany, that stands out is that culture to help one another. And that one thing that stood out from the discussion with Cara that I thought was really interesting was when we looked at the perspectives of the younger cohort of employees out there. So the early or the late millennials, I guess you'd say, go in that direction and the Gen Zs, a much higher percentage of them were interested in, or thought it appropriate to have that discussion at work with your peers to have that conversation. So when I think about hopefulness for the future in this sort of thing, it's like the kids are all right, man. They see that they actually have a much higher tolerance for being open in the work environment. Being friends with the people there, work or even at least having that relationship with their managers that they feel it's okay to talk about those things where we maybe not able to do that in some of our older cohorts of folks, Justin. I'm looking at you and myself. But-

Justin Steinman:
I'm older than you Todd. I'm the old guy here.

Todd Bellemare:
[inaudible 00:12:37] slightly. So as more of a percentage of the workforce becomes that Gen Z or the later millennials, I think that what we're going to see in the workforce or in the workplace rather, the ability to do that or to have those conversations. And again, maybe that breaks down the Brittany or this one, the geriatric millennials and the Gen Zs and that sort of thing. That's a real term, by the way. I didn't just make that up.

Justin Steinman:
Brittany, a geriatric millennial?

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
She sure is. She acts more geriatric than millennial sometimes, but yeah.

Todd Bellemare:
Right. For sure. But yeah, so that again, we get caught up sometimes listening to the state of the health, the world in healthcare and how hopeless it can feel sometimes. And I actually walked away from this conversation feeling hopeful, which is a, certainly a turn for the better, in my opinion.

Justin Steinman:
Yeah. I walked away feeling hopeful as well. And Brittany, thank you for sharing that with us. Interesting personal set on that. I've been working for 25, 30 years longer than I could [inaudible 00:13:41], that was the first conversation that I've had about a colleague's mental health in my entire career. And I've worked at large companies, I've worked at small companies and I think it's a statement about, A, I think it's statement about Definitive Healthcare culture, not them trying to advertise our company but I think it is a statement about our company culture. But also I think it's a statement about where we are at as a society and how things are changing and attitudes are changing and people are more comfortable in understanding and comprehending about what it was like. I'll be honest, 20 years ago if you'd have said something like that, I would've been highly uncomfortable. I'd be like, "Oh, I don't want to know that. Brittany, please, no." I would've freaked out. Like now-

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
And I probably would've been afraid to share that with you as a leader for fear of it affecting my growth in a company.

Justin Steinman:
Right. Totally. And now I'm like, "Well, no, duh, of course you had all this going on." The stress of every single person in this country and this world was through the roofing. Thank God you were smart enough to actually go get someone to help you. Like, great.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
So that's an interesting comment when you say that I was smart enough to get someone to help me. It took a lot of work for me to find someone. Not just mental emotional work to do that. Of course, that did too, but just navigating how to find someone and to establish that care process. So what I appreciated about Cara's presentation in our discussion was that we, instead of making people guess, I'm a highly educated woman who works in healthcare and healthcare analytics, I should be able to navigate this pretty easily. And it was still hard. So I appreciate Kara's efforts to bring that process front and center to folks where they are and where they're going to be for one reason or another. I think that that's going to be super valuable in folks being able to access their own mental healthcare journey.

Justin Steinman:
I mean, that's a real benefit of the CVS. Is healthcare in and of itself is difficult to traverse and to understand and to figure it out mentality even more. First there's also a shortage of providers in this country, like a massive shortage of mental health providers. Worse than some other stuff that we were talking about in other podcasts. But because at CVS' proximity and distribution, they can help you navigate the system. Because let's be honest, not everybody is going to be as well educated and knowledgeable about the healthcare system as you are going to be. And they may have needs as similar or even more dire than yours. So if CVS can help people, they can't solve everybody, but they can help navigate people, that's a huge win.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
And that's a huge stress relief because the idea of navigating it by yourself is stressful. On top of all the reasons you want to go navigate it.

Todd Bellemare:
This actually to me it ties way back to one of our first podcasts when we talked about the diversification of the healthcare system. So we're the CVS' and Walgreens, they all have their own clinics where you can go and get your PCP work done right at the MinuteClinic, or Walgreens or whatever group it might be. But I think that as we look at this disambiguation of the large structures and the convolutedness, so to speak, of what we have in that system, if you can make it so that it is easy, convenient, and right in front of you, it allows for, again, those better outcomes down the line. So it all ties back into that deconstructing of what we initially thought in the early 2000s. Oh, make it all under one big hierarchy and structure. Maybe that breakout makes a little bit more sense because it's more convenient for people. And it does not look as imposing when you're trying to come in the front door to access it.

Justin Steinman:
Yeah. And then there's this great stat from beginning to [inaudible 00:17:32] where we keep talking about more than half Americans, 53% agree that hearing about other people's mental health challenges make them more comfortable seeking out resources and care for themselves. So who knows, Brittany, maybe you gave one or two people out there today or probably [inaudible 00:17:46], five out of 10 people, the courage to go do something about their own personal situation.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
I hope so. And if you work at Definitive Healthcare and are listening, you probably see on my calendar that I put my therapy appointment every week just so people stop booking over it. So that you know that this is what I'm doing every week and that this is a priority for me. And I've had several folks message me to the side saying that they appreciate how open I am about that. So in the last two years, that has become a hill I will die on. I think that everyone, regardless of who you are, what you're struggling with or how severe or not you think your struggles are, everyone could benefit from someone to talk to and help unravel your brain. And then to be able to find that easily is just a huge win. I think at one point in our earlier episodes we were talking about putting PCPs in honey do or Dunkin Donuts, I would love to see mental health work being done in a Dunkin Donuts.

Justin Steinman:
Yeah. [inaudible 00:18:44]

Todd Bellemare:
Or even just talk... Right. Or even just go talk to the person taking your order at Dunkin Donuts. Just start the conversation.

Justin Steinman:
So you go there, Todd, and I go to Lucy from peanuts, what the doctor is in and give her your nickel. And to tell you-

Todd Bellemare:
[inaudible 00:19:00] corner, right? Yeah, exactly.

Justin Steinman:
Exactly. So, interesting. Interesting stuff. Mental health is really out there right now. And so the other thing I was reading as we were prepping for this afterwards discussion is some frankly very scary stuff in the New York Times. Todd, how we were saying we were feeling better about this. I'm going to bring us down unfortunately. But I'm going to take a minute and read something that I found from the New York, this is articles over the past two weeks in the New York Times. So very, very relevant. And it's all about the mental health crisis in US teens.

Justin Steinman:
And according to the Times, I'll I'll quote here, "American adolescence is undergoing a drastic change. Three decades ago, the gravest public health threats to teenagers in the US came from binge drinking, drunken driving, teenage pregnancy, and smoking. All of those have fallen sharply followed by new public health concern, soaring rates of mental health disorders. In 2019, 13% of adolescents reported to having a major depressive episode, a 60% increase from 2007. Emergency room visits by children and adolescents in that period also rose sharply for anxiety, mood disorders and self-harm. And for people ages 10 to 24, suicide rates, which have been stable from 2000, 2007 leaped by nearly 60% by 2018 according to the centers for disease control and prevention." I mean, I looked at that and I was just like, wow. And I didn't even know how to process that. So I'm going to ask you guys, what do we do here? How do you make heads or tails out of that one?

Todd Bellemare:
The two things that makes me think of is one, getting to the root problem. The problems that we're seeing, that 60% increase with a major depressive incident, that is a symptom of something going on, whether it's in the school systems or society in general. And there are things that we should look at, as a country, we should all look ourselves in the mirror for sure. However, people have had mental health issues forever. It's not something new, so to speak, but what is new maybe is our ability to talk about it and admit to it. Which I think in my perspective is that means when you see there is a problem, you have to try to put something out there to evaluate and fix the problem.

Todd Bellemare:
So whether it's a two-pronged attack, looking at the root cause of what is causing our adolescents to feel this way. And two, providing them with the tools, whether they be people or technology or whatever it might be, or even again, it's just that culture change, or providing a safe environment for adolescents to be able to talk about it, because while talking about it isn't going to solve every problem, it is going to possibly open doors to solving the problem. So those are the two things. And again, having the oomph of a large company that is dedicated to this. Not to say that large companies are the answer to anything, but to have the healthcare industry trying to refocus itself around mental healthcare is a major improvement from where we were even 10 years ago.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
And that article that CVS had published that Cara had mentioned that the stated goal is to reduce suicide attempts by 20%. I think 20, 25. And I think that that is an incredible and worthy goal and I appreciate how candid that goal is. I don't know that in my childhood that was ever discussed so openly that this is a problem that this is something that even happens, let alone something that we need to address. But that we are aiming to reduce suicide attempts. That it's a reality, people are struggling and that this is one of the solutions that they have identified. So how do we help identify new solutions?

Justin Steinman:
I don't know about the two of you, but in my childhood I never once had a mental health conversation with my parents. Full stop.

Todd Bellemare:
Full stop. Yep. I agree.

Justin Steinman:
And now I have four kids and I talk about my kids incessantly. And I've had mental health conversations with all of them. "How are you feeling? Are you stressed out? Are you anxious? How do you feel?" Thank God, at least I don't think any of my kids have any major mental health issues. I'm constantly monitoring and you don't always know what you don't know, but it's just part of the regular daily check in. I think that's like an evolution as well about it. I guess my parents are just from a very different, obviously are from a very different time period.

Todd Bellemare:
I think a big thing to me that always stands out is knowing that there's a problem and talking about it will lead to more acceptance of that thing. And that goes for a lot of different things. But specifically for mental health as parents and as school teachers and as employees and managers are more willing to talk about it, it breaks down that, again, the hustle culture barrier, whatever we want to call it. So once that fear of being open and honest goes away, that, again, might not solve everything, but it opens the door for help.

Justin Steinman:
What was interesting about that Times article is there's a whole series of articles actually ready. Look, the cynic in me, I have four kids with four cell phones and smart devices and I yell at each of them at least six times a day, "Get off your device, look up." As I'm sure pretty much every other parent listening to this podcast does. But what was interesting was the Times article dismissed social media and screen time. I'm still not going to tell my kids that because I want them off their devices, but they say US federal research that teenagers as a group are getting less sleep, less exercise and are spending less time in person with friends. All of which doctors say are crucial for healthy development at a period in life when it is typical to test boundaries and explore one's identity. The combined result for some of these adolescents is a kind of cognitive implosion, is what the Time says.

Justin Steinman:
And they define cognitive implosion as anxiety, depression, compulsive behaviors, self-harm, and ultimately even suicide. So kind of shocking when you look at that, but also really interesting about this kind of combination of less sleep, less exercise, and I guess less time in person could theoretically be connected to screen time, but either way, it's all about those human to human interactions.

Todd Bellemare:
Right. I think that when we look at even the effects of the pandemic where kids were more isolated and that certainly will have an effect on them feeling more depressed and more anxious and those sorts of things, there will be a transition time too as we come out of it and they get more face time with their friends or peers in places where there may be an amplification of the anxiety of just being in a social setting again. However, I do think, especially as we're talking about this sort of thing and we see the explosion in, even if you just listen to podcasts right now, the ads you're hearing are for mental health, like online mental health options. And so as that sort of thing starts to really intertwine itself in the zeitgeist.

Todd Bellemare:
Again, I go back to that, the kids are all right. The younger generation is looking at this, "Well, no, of course we talk about our feelings. Of course we talk about our mental health." That mentality is going to need to continue to bloom, especially as we're coming out of the pandemic and people are feeling that anxiety and feeling it's okay to talk about it. So if we were still with that same older mentality that says, no, no, no, you don't about your feelings. You don't talk about your mental health. And we were coming out of this, I almost feel like back in 1918 when they went through that and all the kids, the anxiety, that probably contributed to the culture of, hey, no, no, we don't talk about that stuff. So now that we are where we are and the focus is turning, I'm again, these are terrifying statistics for sure. Especially, I'm a father of two almost teen girls, that it is terrifying for me, for sure.

Todd Bellemare:
But I do like, same Justin. I talk about it openly. "Hey, how are you doing? How are you feeling? What's going on? What do you think about this?" So I think that is what we have to continue to do and continue to not stigmatize that conversation.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
No I would encourage you as people leaders in the company to do that with your employees as well. To have those mental health check-ins with them and to provide, and this is not just you two, but anybody listening. To check in with anybody about how they're feeling, how they're doing and help them unravel any of their stressors.

Justin Steinman:
Yeah. But, but, you know, Brittany, that's an interesting thing because the emotional caring part of me does want to do that check in, but you've also got today an age, as a manager, you don't want to cross that line and pry, and there are certain things that you're able to have that should be private and you should be comfortable saying, "I have an issue and I'm not comfortable talking about that." Trying to find that line, there's no managerial training that can say, "Hey, Justin, here's how you talk about mental health with your employees." Maybe there's. I haven't had that training and so I'm doing the level best that I can being the good dude that I think I am. But there's like that line as to how do you go and how do you make people comfortable but not pry too much? It's a challenge, I think for a lot of managers.

Todd Bellemare:
Yeah. I think a strategy for that is maybe not going down to the person level. As a group say, "Hey, everybody needs to have, we need to give you your time that you need to take care of your mental health. And while you may not be comfortable coming right to me, here are the resources," work with HR to pull those sorts of things in. But also to even say that in a group meeting that, "Hey, we do care. I care about you guys and I care about your mental health. And if there is time where you may not want to discuss the problem, but you need a half day to go do a mental health break, that's totally okay." And so even setting that stage, I think is a good strategy to ensure that people at least feel that they're not going to be getting reprimanded for taking time off or that sort of thing.

Justin Steinman:
Yeah. I like that, Todd. And I think that comes back to what we almost kicked the podcast off with this conversation of normalization. If you, again, broke your ankle and you told your manager you needed to go to see the orthopedist for your broken ankle, they're going to be like, "Yes, please go." And so now you've got to make normal, "I need to go to a therapist and I'm out from 11:00 to 12:00 every Wednesday." Sorry. And I'm going to start. I'm out from 11:00 to 12:00 every Wednesday. Period.

Todd Bellemare:
Period. End of story.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
You don't have to apologize for being human.

Justin Steinman:
Exactly. But that's the nature as to who we are, Brittany. I feel like every, at least I know we're all always apologizing. "Sorry, I didn't mean to. Sorry." I just did that academically. What a great illustrative use case. And I think we've got to get past that apologizing for being human. That's a great way to think about it.

Todd Bellemare:
And Brittany yells at me for saying, sorry, all the time

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
I do.

Todd Bellemare:
Yeah.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
You'll know if you apologize. There's no reason to apologize for being human. It adds to the poor mental health, I think

Todd Bellemare:
I agree.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
But I also appreciate, so Todd, you had mentioned the transition that the kids are going to experience learning how to be human beings again, going back into schools and being around other people. I recognize that that transition is hard for me. I think about my first week back in the office, seeing people, I was vibrating. I had so many feelings and some of them were anxious, some of them were excited and I recently went to a conference and I forgot how to be a professional human being there. I was like, "What do we do?" And just the general acknowledgement and shared acknowledgement that, "This is weird. This is stressful." All of us are uncomfortable right now, but just general acknowledgement that this situation or this thing is stressful.

Todd Bellemare:
Yeah. I think understanding that, or at least feeling that everyone else is feeling anxious too, is again, it's another barrier to break down in your own head to say, "Hey, yeah. Oh yeah everyone feels like this. You're not alone." Those are important things for sure.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
That's what I was trying to get at. You got there before me. Thank you.

Justin Steinman:
You got there. And you know, it's almost like May is mental health awareness month, but really every month should be mental health awareness month. We don't have physical health awareness month. It seems kind of crazy. And so we timed this series of podcasts for May because we want to recognize mental health awareness month. I think every month should be mental health awareness month.

Todd Bellemare:
I agree. It's like on mother's day where my kids were like, "Well, when's kids' day?" And I said, "Every day is kids' day." Which every parent knows that line.

Justin Steinman:
Exactly. And so to wrap us up here, I remember we asked Cara, what is she thinking that everyone as an individual can do? She had really a three strep prescription. She said first, think about our own health wellbeing and the importance of brushing our brain. How do you take care of your own mental health? Two, educate. How do you educate by conversation of mental health, mental wellbeing impacts us all. No matter what your role is, it impacts us. And it's normal. You don't have to do this alone. And then finally as a healthcare provider she said, we as an industry have to push hard to be bold. I like that. Push hard to be bold. To change how we deliver mental health wellbeing and mental health illness services so that we can meet people where they're at on their journey when they need it and what I thought was before they need it.

Justin Steinman:
So the whole conversation, even though the way we've had our conversation today has been all about treating the mental health challenge. There's a whole big thing in physical medicine around preventative health. My doctor's like, "Watch what you eat. Justin, go for a walk every day. Justin, get off the couch." Nobody is giving me, "Hey, Justin, take time to do yoga. Hey, do some Zen. Chill out. Brush your brain." And so I think that-

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
No one has ever told you to chill out before?

Justin Steinman:
I have been told to chill out, but not in a positive way. That's a whole other conversation, Brittany.

Todd Bellemare:
Right. That's another podcast for sure.

Justin Steinman:
That's a whole other podcast. We'll get my wife on as a special guest for that one. She kicked me right out of the chair. But I think the whole preventative angle is a really important one to think about.

Todd Bellemare:
I agree 100%. The idea that there are a million apps and a million books out there about your dieting and exercise and how to live healthier, it just has to become our basic conversation. And when we talk health, we're talking the whole body. We're talking your limbs, your heart when we're talking about your brain.

Justin Steinman:
Yeah. All right, Britt, I'm going to give you the final word here. What are your words of wisdom on behalf of us?

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
The final word, man, I like what she had to say and what you reiterated on. Be bold. And I think that we need to be bold in talking about our mental health and we need to be bold in identifying what it is that we're feeling and what we're experiencing so that other folks who are around us feel empowered to go seek out their own mental healthcare. So, use our benefits and go get a mental health check in.

Todd Bellemare:
And, and be a mental health buddy.

Brittany Morin-Mezzadri:
Yeah.

Justin Steinman:
Words of wisdom from both of you. Thanks to both of you for joining me today. And thanks to all of you for listening to Definitively Speaking, A Definitive Healthcare podcast. Please join me next time for a conversation with Brian Fugere, Chief Product Officer at Symplr for a conversation about governance, risk and compliance in the healthcare market. If you like what you've heard today, please remember to rate, review and subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, Google podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. To learn more about how healthcare commercial intelligence can support your business, please follow us on twitter at definitivehc, or visit us at definitivehc.com. Until next time, take care, stay healthy, and please brush your brain.